For the early part of my on again/off again relationship with the Glock pistol, I had fits that I could shoot those little bitty, caliber and half sized groups at seven yards with repeatable boredom. The problem I experienced, along with many others it seems, is that the group was consistently to the left of point of aim. I am a right handed shooter.
I started becoming a serious student of the Glock seven or eight years ago due to work. I fought it, aimed to the right for qualifications, and drifted sights as a solution. The most frustrating thing is that when ball and dummy drills are introduced, no movement would be observed in the front sight. It drove me crazy.
Then about six or so years ago, I was helping out with a cadet class at the state police academy when I observed the same thing with a group of cadets. Right handed shooters were grouping left, and left handed shooters were grouping to the right with no visual clues during ball and dummy drills.
I went home and began to isolate parts of the shooting sequence to see if I could not figure it out. Eventually, holding the gun with only pressure on the front strap and back, I began to hit point of aim/point of impact. Eventually, I found out that I could death grip the gun as hard as I wanted as long as I only placed grip pressure squarely on axis of the front strap to the back strap with no side loading.
Some people have called the problem “Glock milking”, or simply milking the grip on a Glock with the strong hand. I don’t believe the terminology is quite right as milking will manifest itself in some sight movement during ball and dummy drills. This is not the case with introducing side load into the strong hand of the pistol.
Some folks have successfully countered the issue with stronger pressure on the support hand of the pistol. It does seem to be hit and miss, however.
All I try to do is this. With the strong hand, I place a moderate amount of grip on the pistol to support it out in front of me. The support hand fills in the gaps and provides 360 degree pressure on the gun. I put just enough pressure front to back that a magazine of shooting will leave a checkering imprint on the meat of my my palm under the thumb. I also found that in placing pressure front strap to back strap it gives me extra lock out on the strong side wrist, stabilizing the gun shot to shot for faster sight return.
Any idea as to the actual cause of this phenomenon?
I notice that I have the same issue with G17/22 sized Glocks, but not with G19/23s or G26/27s. The problem is also absent when I shoot a G21, G30, or G42. I have side XL/XXL hands.
I would say I have a medium-ish sized hand (medium sized palm, short fingers) and I used to have this issue with my (now not mine) Glock 23. I’ve shot a handful of Glocks since then and I have found that, with the strong hand, providing pressure only to the front and back strap is definitely the way to go. The moment I realized this was happening to me is when I realized that I was using my thumb to squeeze part of the grip. The more I squeezed, the more I shot left. The less I squeezed with my thumb, the closer I shot POA.
I now shoot with my strong thumb completely devoid of activity. All it does is serve as an indexing point for where the tang of the grip meets the web of my hand. I literally have it simply “resting” away from my hand regardless of if I’m using a two-hand grip or not. I find that this not only allows me to shoot Glocks more accurately and consistently, but it helps with trigger control on any handgun that I shoot.
When shooting a pistol I found the trigger finger is subject to peer pressure. If the other fingers are exerting side loaded pressure on the frame, the trigger finger will have a tendency to exert side loaded pressure on the trigger. However, If the fingers are pressuring straight to the rear, it helps isolate the trigger finger.
To see how side loading pressure on the gun with the shooting hand can be detrimental, this experiment: straighten your trigger finger and try to make a fist with the other fingers. Notice what happens to the trigger finger. Now straighten the trigger finger and squeeze the rest of the fingers front to back and see what happens.
Another reason why I don’t like Glocks as much as everyone else. I should be able to grasp the gun in any way I can manage, press the trigger to the rear, and the round should go exactly where my sights were. I should be able to use a death grip or two fingers and the POA/POI of the pistol shouldn’t move left/right.
I think that it might be unreasonable to expect that any pistol should be able to deliver optimum results using inappropriate grip techniques. If the Glock doesn’t fit your hand, that is a different matter. I would say that we should not confuse the interface with the platform itself. Even a match 1911 won’t deliver if you don’t hold it correctly.
I have this exact problem with the M&P platform where I use(d) a deathgrip at all points my hand contacted the gun and it threw nice groups but always to the left so I don’t think the problem is with Glocks.
I did shoot an SP01 and the problem “went away” at 7 yards but that was a friend’s race gun and I think it was just a crutch for the problem.
Actually, I was wondering if it had to do with small hands – hah!! In that I have small hands and can’t wrap around enough to get a better grip.
Jerry,
Do you find you may be giving up some of the bio-mechanical efficiencies afforded with the isosceles method by decreasing pressure on the sides of the grip? I’ve suffered the same symptoms, but treated them successfully with dry fire.
Hey Craig,
I actually have found (for me) that focusing the grip pressure front to back has helped me. I’ve noticed that when I started to focus on how I was gripping the pistol, I got better “lock out” on the strong side wrist, thus causing the sights to return more consistently. I’ve since started using the same style gripping techniques across all the pistols that I shoot. I can place enough pressure on the pistol and still keep the trigger finger isolated enough to have good trigger control.
Thanks,
Jones
I recently attended a course with Pat Macnamara. He too was having this problem when first transitioning from the 1911 to the Glock and he looked to a friend of his at the Army Marksmanship Unit for help. The answer Pat was provided was to put as much finger in the trigger as possible, regardless of what part of the finger land on the shooting surface of the trigger. I was having the same problem and I tried this and it works. Pat has written pieces about this topic that could probably be found with a Google search
Pat is spot on. A good blog post with the same conclusion https://www.tridentconcepts.com/the-real-deal-with-your-finger/
Here’s the article he did for SSD
http://soldiersystems.net/2013/10/26/gunfighter-moment-pat-mcnamara-14/
Pat is a truly good dude.
FYI, some 20-odd years ago I was fortunate enough to take a pistol class taught by Jeff Cooper (this was after he left Gunsite). In that class he was very explicit that in gripping the pistol hand pressure was to be applied to the front and back strap, period. I’ve gripped every pistol in that fashion ever since, with satisfactory results.
Just an additional data point for you. 🙂
–Andrew, @LawSelfDefense
I know. I thought front to back was the way you were supposed to do it for the longest time. This is not news to me.
I was a personal trainer, and my wife is a physical therapist, so I wonder about such things…
Could the increased grip angle of the Glock have a biomechanical effect on the bottom of the grip, putting leftward pressure on it that effects the movement of the pistol under recoil? It would be similar to the POI shift when holding a pistol against a barrier, instead of holding the support hand against it. Taking a conscious ‘front-rear’ grip might reduce the effect.
I think that is what is happening with me since it only occurs when I shoot G17/22 pistols and not with G19/23/26/27, etc., which have a less pronounced “hump” contacting the heel of my palm.
Glocks are not all they’re cracked up to be, IMO. My G21 was flawless but too big for IWB carry, and the G22 I recently purchased was constantly locking back prematurely. I was told by an experienced LEO that I was “limp wristing” the weapon. Perhaps I was. Regardless, since I am not a cop, I have relegated the Glock to the ash heap of history and will stick with steel framed sidearms in general, and my 1911s in particular, for the remainder of my days. Whatever TLC they demand, I will comply, for (again) IMO, Mr. Browning understood more about firearm design than Mr. Glock ever will.
Very relevant to the article. Thanks for the insight.
The POA/POI issue is something I’ve puzzled over since we went to the Dark Side in 2007. Like many I have examined one theory after another (finger position, milking the grip, etc.) with little success. We have quals coming soon. I’m going to try this. I had begun to despair of a true solution. Congratulations for solving this quandary!
Great article.
I think this Ron Avery “Stripe” drill, along with his concept of “finishing flat,” to be very helpful on this issue.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Azb3q8wOrV4
I was never able to figured out as why my 17 was shooting to left. Group itself was good. But it was consistently off about 1″ to the left at about 7yd.
After trying to figure out whats wrong with it, I gave up on G17, and traded it for M&P9, and never looked back.
So I wish I had this article then.
Funny thing is, however, I also had a G22, and I shot it perfectly fine with no milking issues.
This is why I love this site!!!
I’ve now come across a few “Ah-ha” posts along with some real interesting products that I quickly purchased. Thank you for the great work!
Excellent topic. Sometime last year I had it explained to me that the strong hand should grip the pistol like it were a C-clamp; pressure applied to the front and backstraps, but not the sides – as apposed to how one would grab a hammer. The issue described by the author was a chronic one for me and this advice corrected it quickly.
I have this problem with my G17. I became aware of it during a 4 day handgun course. My fundamentals were solid, but my groups were to the left (I’m right handed). I eventually drifted the sights to get the groups on poa. Not a great fix. Now I’m going to try Pat Mac’s method described above because it seems like like the the easiest fix.