Many years ago, Ernest Langdon wrote an article entitled “Fear Not, The Double Action Shot”. If memory serves me correctly, it was written shortly after he waxed all comers at the 2003 IDPA Nationals in the CDP category with a SIG P220. It was reading that article that started me down the road to where I am today.
I give credit where credit is due to Mr. Langdon, and I must say that I owe him. At a 2004 class, he set me on the road to improving my struggle with understanding the Double Action/Single Action pistol that made me a much better shooter, and a better instructor. I never took the chance to thank him for it.
Much to do has been made about how much of a hindrance the double action shot is these days. The newer generation of shooters will never likely give it a chance as they have come up in a world of “ONE CONSISTENT TRIGGER PULL ALWAYS”. They view the double action/single action pistols as a tool of the dinosaurs, and possible one step above the Smith and Wesson Model 19. They often miss that the DA/SA pistols are alive and well in competition still today. Games like Action Pistol have seen a steady presence by CZ’s and SIGs, and they have thrived. My mentor Bruce Gray set several National Records at the Bianchi Cup with a SIG Sauer X5 chambered in 9mm. That same year Bruce was beaten with a CZ75.
One of the keys in my opinion to understanding the double action shot is leverage. We give up a lot of leverage by starting the trigger stroke way too late on the press out. In a continuity of fire situation, or simulated in dry fire, the trigger stroke should begin just about the time that the hands come together for a supported shot. The idea is that the gun goes bang (or click) at full extension or slightly before. The key is that we learn the timing through dry fire to when the extension of the press out is half way out, half of the trigger pull is taken up. At 3/4 extension, 3/4 of the trigger is taken out and the sights start crossing the plane of where the shooter is looking. When the gun comes to full extension, the hammer falls and we drive the sights aggressively to the target. If at any time, the conditions change to a no shoot, the finger comes off the trigger and onto the safety spot. It is the same technique taught with a Glock or M1911, but the timing is different. Like any weapon system we choose, we have to learn the specifics of that weapon system. The DA/SA is no different. It is not “harder”, it is just different.
The day of the DA/SA pistol has come and gone. Certainly, the military still issues them in the form of the Beretta M9, but most of our military gets just enough training to be familiar. NSW still issues the SIG Sauer P226 and they prove that they can be shot very well.
But, we live in a plastic world.
Another good read. For me, it’s not so much the double action shot that I dislike about the Beretta M9 but how far back the trigger moves after it switches to single action compared to how far forward it is in double. I can’t speak to others like Sig, but I highly dislike the M9 because the trigger never feels like its in the right place; too far or too close.
Thanks for writing this article Jerry. Even after carrying the Sig P226 as my issued duty gun for my entire career, I still struggle with the double action shot. I will have to try this technique out.
Very interesting to find the original Langdon article, still online at pistol-training dot com. Thank You for the reference and kudos to him. Something new to work on with my 226: tighten up the DA groups. Why do you think the DA/SA time has come and gone? Polymer override? Agency budgets?
There are a lot of reasons as to why agencies went away from the DA/SA platform. I hate to attempt to put my finger on one or two and say “THIS IS WHY”. Reasons range from things like the obvious, like cost, to the “meeee tooooo” because neighboring agencies want are carrying polymer, to the fact that many agencies recruit differently than what they did in the day. A college degree means way more than military experience in some areas. Often that translates to someone that has never held a firearm that is borderline afraid of them. That is not mean as a stereotype. They are all just nails in the coffin.
The real difference comes in cost of training in learning the two different trigger pulls. It takes practice. You also have the initial trigger pull weight. One that tends to hover around 8 to 12 pounds. Not to mention the longer time your finger has input on the trigger. We subscribe that the optimal trigger on a rifle weighing 7 or more pounds is between 5 and 3 pounds. But yet we take a one pound firearm and jack it up to 12. On most rifles that would generate a near universal negative reaction. I guess if you are raised on DA/SA guns it’s not a big deal. however if you are raised on 1911s, or Glocks like many of today’s new shooters, then you have a learning curve.
Personally if I have a new shooter, I would recommend them a $500 gun that is simple and reliable vs a $1000 gun that is going to require significant range time to become proficient with.
My typical 9mm on the civilian side is an M&P or a Glock. When I was first issued the M9, I felt like I had just traded my car for a bicycle. But after a little bit of trigger time, I don’t really shoot it any worse than my plastic 9mm. It seems behind the current curve concerning the type of manual safety, overall size, and weight, but I really can’t complain too much about the DA/SA trigger after putting a little time into it.
My very first shooting experience was a Ruger P94 9mm, a DA/SA pistol. An old and wise IPSC instructor made me learn to shoot and compete with that before he would let me try a Glock. After several 1000 rounds through that old pee shooter about 12 years ago I think it naturally taught me greater trigger manipulation and control with my addiction to 1911’s that I now have. Dang I wish I still had that old gun it was the first handgun I ever bought and fired. The old man wouldn’t let me shoot his guns or use his ammo.
The key to shooting DA pistols is dry fire. Having started my career with 5906 and later Beretta I have no problems with the trigger system. Certainly the one trigger for all pulls is easy. What was it Larry Vickers said about Glock being for people who treat their guns like lawn mowers? My department used to mandate our Smiths and Berettas be carried on safe. To hear people on the net we should have all died screaming deaths. Training. Even doing something as simple as taking the safety off is important. It may not be as fun as blasting ammo downrange but it is important.
I personally favor the DA/SA second only to the SAO like 1911s. I grew up shooting traditional DA revolvers, so the ten-pound pull is nothing short of completely familiar. Call me archaic, but I shoot my West German P226 just as well, if not better, than my 1911. I have three times as many rounds down the pipe of that Colt Commander as the P226.
There’s something to say about the simplicity and safety of chambering a round, actuating the decocker, and holstering a large combat pistol. Ready to go, no fumbling with a thumb safety (for those who find it difficult), but not safetyless like a Glock. It becomes so automatic to hit that decocker after chambering a round that I’m never left with a hot pistol with a sub-5# trigger. It also goes without saying that the SIG DA/SA trigger is lightyears ahead of striker triggers for smoothness, crispness, and speed. The Short Reset Trigger in a SIG, combined with the easy tracking and soft recoil, make double- and triple-taps a snap.
Well said. My 4566 has served me well. Laser accurate and bet your life reliable. No plastic in my world.
But then again, I’m a dinosaur………and the meteor is coming.
I’ve spent most of my life with DA/SA Autos, mostly older Sigs and HK’s. I’ve carried them in both police work and working Protection Details, as well as off duty, and shot competition with them. I have also been in a shooting with a Sig P-220 and numerous near shootings. Equally, I’ve done the firearms portion of a very high number of OIS’s with DA/SA autos. Just so I make it clear that I am not new to these things, or not a fan.
I disagree highly with the long press, timed press, starting on the trigger very early, or whatever we want to call the technique. I was first introduced to it by NSW personnel training with John Shaw over two decades ago, and see this continued to this day in some areas. For domestic L/E work when we are very long in the evaluation phase, you need to be evaluating threats right to the bitter end…and the finger should not be on the trigger. I have seen most ND’s with these system happen due to on the trigger well before the sights are on and tracking (as the target will often be moving). In the shootings I have been in, I could “feel the press”, but I really couldn’t tell you what it felt like. Essentially, you can feel the movement and not the weight in my experience. Others may differ, but if that is the case I want to hear it from those who can relate it to an actual gunfight and not competition….it is very different. I have always taught this system like everything else as far as sights, press, follow through. The key is that the work on the press is more than those with S/A on short movement guns. I have had no issues getting my people to get very high levels of in field performance with DA/SA guns…….it just took a ton of work and focus on that DA first shot, and the follow-up transition. That is the rub. It takes work. That work can pay off if it is invested. Many places are unwilling to invest in the work, and the easy way out is an easy trigger. The back side is I do not feel those triggers are as forgiving as a DA trigger (or long travel trigger) for managing people as opposed to pure shooting.
Like Ernest Langdon, I have found my “happy place compromise” with a LEM trigger HK P-30. It sort of allows for the DA travel and S/A weight.
I agree with Jerry that the DA is a misunderstood system that can be shot far better than people think. We just get there via a different means. I shoot them like a Revolver on the initial shot and then go into “SA” mode off the transition rather than staging the trigger on the presentation.
Thank you for writing this article! I catch so much grief from buddies and shooters at the local shoot for having something other than a Glock or M&P. I started pistol shooting with a Glock 23, but man when I had the chance to shoot a CZ75 I just fell in love with it.
I agree with Darryl on when to start pulling the trigger. During my 1st 13 years I carried first a 9mm Sig 226, Sig 220 and Sig 226 (40 S&W). I was involved in a OIS in 2001 with the Sig 226 (40) had no recollection of the trigger press for either of the two shots I fired, maybe the 2 best shots I have ever fired. With that being said the 40 S&W round did not impress me and I went back to my 220 the next day. During this time we would routinely shoot 2-300 rounds per week and I would spend quite a few of those rounds transitioning from the double action pull to the single action second shot. Much like Darryl I have also found my preferred weapon and some might consider it a step back but when my Department approved the 1911 I put together 2 identical Commanders and think they will take me to retirement, seems I’ve carried 8 +1 rounds of 45 for a long time and have found it serves me well.
Interesting comments by all. Almost 2 years ago I went to the SIG Academy armorer’s course for the Classic 2xx series, put on by Mr. Carroll. Full house, glad I had the opp. to get there, met some really good guys. While I appreciate my Gs and 1911s, I’ll carry the 226 I tuned after taking the course, because of the SRT I installed and the pistol’s overall performance. No OISs yet, just training like there’s no tomorrow. Back to the range.
Staging the trigger is an old revolver trick. It is the pulling back on the trigger to a set spot, and then holding that until the sights come onto the target, and then finishing the shot. It usually doesn’t work out well as it leads to snatching at the trigger to finish the shot. I do not advocate it. Running the trigger on the way to the target is pretty main stream, and I know of 10 man agencies that teach it, and 1200 man agencies that teach it. Once the trigger starts in motion, it stays in motion unless the conditions change, and then the finger comes off the trigger. Some people claim this will lead to the proverbial “streets running red with blood” with NDs. It simply isn’t so if people are trained. People will do as they are trained. Some people claim that it is a “competition only thing” that simply isn’t so. I know of a student that was involved in a shooting about a year ago who shot a subject across the width of a car. He drew his P226, ran his trigger on the way to the target as he was trained and scored five hits on a subject who was stabbing his partner with a screw driver. A buddy of mine who is a former Captain with a state police agency had a troop that shot a subject holding a hostage in the head on the press out. The trooper was armed with a Glock 35. The greatest proof to me that it works was a non-shoot involving a subject on a warrant service that reached for a gun. I ran the trigger on an MP-5 as soon as the selector came off from the low ready. The subject did grab the pistol, and then he threw it to the side. I got off the trigger and back to the safety spot and no one got shot that night. The guy to my right reported the exact same experience.
None of the above is meant as any type of a disrespectful slight to anyone’s opinion, training style, or experience. It’s just a few factual cases that we will do under stress as we are trained as sports medicine suggests as long as 1) We are adequately trained in a technique and 2) We believe in our training and believe that the technique will work. A case in point as those who say “I will never see my sights in a gun fight”. They are right. They won’t. From experience, I can tell you that you will if you train it and the sights are available.
Thanks,
Jones
Thanks for the info Jerry. I have had “less than stellar” reports regarding other places using the stacking technique. I have no doubt about getting off the trigger during a press, as I have done it on several occasions. The difference was both in the revolver era and later with those on that press right out of the holster and trying to “time” it when on target. I have found that time “warps” so badly, and situations are so dynamic that the “timing” involved can get pretty fouled up. I kind of have a hard time with the dynamic of something we wouldn’t do with a 1911 or a Glock, but would with a Sig, Beretta or HK. Thanks for your insight and a good conversation.
We do agree that you can see the sights….;-).
Thanks, man!
In 1991, Smith & Wesson warned that this technique could lead to an AD with their DA/SA pistols – which could fire even if the trigger were released short of the ‘normal’ release point.
All Smith & Wesson Pistols Capable Of Double-Action Firing
It has come to our attention that some users of Smith & Wesson pistols
capable of firing in double-action, may “stage” the trigger in anticipation of firing
a shot in the double-action mode. “Staging” is the act of pulling the trigger
rearward toward-but just short of the point where the hammer falls and
the pistol fires. Such manipulation of the trigger can reduce the user’s control
of the handgun and can result in an unintentional discharge.
Furthermore, if the user decides not to fire, release of the trigger from a position close to the firing point in the “staging” process could result in a discharge.
Obviously, “staging” the trigger violates a basic rule of firearm safety which warns you to keep your finger off the trigger and outside the trigger guard
until ready to fire. We warn all users of our pistols capable of firing in double-action to refrain from “staging” the trigger.
~ Smith&Wesson
If you follow GunBroker, you will often see the high bidder on many Beretta G model pistols is someone named “Bill Wilson.”
I have heard Bill Wilson, Bill Rogers and Ernie Langdon say they shoot a Beretta better than any other handgun, with a Sig a close second.
Darryl, I thought you were into DA/SA S&W .40’s these days?
Easy Hondo, its a collectors item, and a means to stay current on multiple systems. If I had to have a Gen 3 S&W example in the collection, that is a neat one (for those wondering…I picked up a Lew Horton Shorty Forty today). I also got a Beretta 92 recently for the same reason………and I am not really a fan of those either.
I have always believed that as an instructor, you really need to be at least familiar and competent with most of the popular systems out there. Of course I always fall in love with the weird guns like P7’s and LEM’s as Tim and Hilton like to point out.
Ha, you have been outed. Fess up, you have already asked Hilton to make a rear sight for that thing, and you have a Galco “Miami Vice” shoulder holster on the way.
My Bruce Gray Sig-Sauers, including a P226 for tactical use, and an X5 for competition use, are amongst my favorite guns! If you own a DA/SA Sig, and it has not gone to Bruce, you’re doing yourself, and your trigger finger, a huge disservice!
A few years back I attended an IPSC indoor steel shoot. The course of fire was 5 stages of 7 rounds, from a static standing position at 7 different steel plates, set at 15 yards (each “stage” had the plates arranged differently).
I thought that it could be a fun training exercise for draw/fire with a DA/SA gun, so I grabbed my trusty W.German 228 and headed down to the range. It seemed like was going to be an informal type of event, but some 7 or 8 ‘hot-shot’ semi pros showed up to play as well, all wearing their sponsor jerseys and sporting their tricked out Glock long slides and XD tacticals.
When the smoke cleared and the scores were tallied, all told I came in 3rd overall, beating out all but 2 of the semi-pro guys. They were impressed that I was able to turn in such quick, well placed shots with such a long first trigger pull. I smirked and simply told one of the guys “training is everything”. He smiled and conceded that I was correct.
Moral of the story, if you train with it well enough, good results can be had by just about any weapon system. I don’t shoot my Glocks or M&P’s or 1911’s any better or worse than my Sigs and Berettas, just ever so slightly differently. I also train with them ever so slightly differently as well too though.
Jerry, thanks for the kind words and I am glad to hear you got good stuff out of our training together. That has been longer ago than we would both want to admit.
At some point we should chat so I can clarify the details of my feelings on the “press out”. It is much more complicated than even my original article even states.
Thanks again and I hope all is well?
S/F
Ernest Langdon