From 1986 to 2010 I was issued, qualified with, or authorized to carry a 1911—even got the POST certified SWAT Academy training for the 1911. While I had no problems maintaining my personal 1911′s, go ahead and try to keep nearly 100 1911′s from a large full time metropolitan SWAT team up and running. The 1911 is not a logical choice for general LE issue, including SWAT team use, in this era given the increased fiscal outlay they require. In addition, for years I thought I shot a 1911 better than any other pistol. However, when run across a wide variety of tests based on objective times and scores, rather than subjective feelings, that did not turn out to be true. It turns out I run an M&P or Glock just as well.
About 18 mo ago, the Command staff of a large metro SWAT team was considering moving from their agency issue G22’s to 1911’s for the “increased stopping power”, “improved accuracy”, and because other preeminent teams use them (ie. cool guy pistol envy). Several dialed in members of the agency in question asked me to write a briefing discussing the issue. In short, I will summarize my response–in this day and age 1911′s are NOT a smart or prudent move for LE agencies as a result of the increased initial and ongoing costs, demand for highly skilled pistolsmiths to be readily available, and the low magazine capacity for a primary LE sidearm, not to mention the increased weight of the pistol and ammunition on a duty belt, potentially leading to higher incidence of chronic back injuries.
Some prominent U.S. military units historically used M1911 pistols, however for the past decade many of these units have moved to more modern pistol designs. Many individuals associated with these organizations are quite adamant that 1911’s are no longer an optimal pistol design for large units to choose, given the high costs and increased maintenance associated with the 1911 compared to other more modern pistol designs that function just as well or better.
Likewise many well known LE agencies have been noted for their use of 1911’s. However, like their military brethren, many of these LE agencies have recently moved away from the 1911 to more modern pistol designs. Now if an LE agency has a multi-decade culture of 1911 handguns, a fairly large stock of .45 Auto ammunition, 1911 magazines, holsters, and accessories, as well as armorers trained in supporting 1911 handguns, then a 1911 might make some sense for them, however this is not universally true for other LE agencies without such long standing ties to 1911’s.
It is most logical for LE SWAT teams to stick with standard pistols their agency issues. For example, if an agency issues Glock pistols to all officers, then they should stick with that same pistol for SWAT officers due to ready availability of armorer support and continuity of training. It is illogical to state that an LE SWAT team “needs a 1911”, since more modern pistol designs are being successfully used by many well trained top tier LE and military organizations. The funds an agency saves by NOT purchasing unneeded new handguns could be used instead to purchase other critical accessories for SWAT, for example quality suppressors for long guns. By remaining with the same pistol as the rest of the agency uses, current ammunition, armorer support, and ancillary equipment all remain constant and existing training is enhanced. If officers ever faced a serious multi-round engagement, both patrol and SWAT officers could share magazines in exigent circumstances. Despite the efficacy, cost savings, and logic of retaining standard agency pistols, if a SWAT team still desires a .45 Auto handgun and the rest of the agency uses another caliber pistol (G17/G22, M&P9/M&P40, HK P30), then at least selecting the same type/brand of pistol as the rest of the agency uses (ie. G21, M&P45, HK45) should be considered as “muscle memory”, ergonomics, training, and armorer support remain the same, although new magazines, holsters, and more expensive .45 Auto ammunition will be required.
Given that the modern Glock, S&W M&P, and HK pistols are proving more than accurate enough for precision shots in the hands of our Nation’s preeminent hostage rescue, counter terrorism, and SWAT teams, it seems somewhat specious to argue that 1911’s are required by a local SWAT team to improve first shot accuracy. If LE officers are not routinely shooting high scores on common standardized pistol tests used by other military SOF and LE SWAT organizations, for example shooting in excess of 475 on the 500 point aggregate drill at 25 yards, maxing out the three Defoor pistol shooting tests, routinely passing the LAPD SWAT qual, or scoring above 90 on the 99 drill, then more training is warranted, not new pistols. If enhanced hit probability is still desired, then adding a slide mounted RDS to the current agency pistols, as is now being done by other organizations, is more efficacious in ensuring precision first round hits, especially on moving targets and at extended ranges, than purchasing a new pistol. If the best combat/HR shooters in America have had no problems transitioning from 1911′s to more modern pistols and have not had issues with accuracy or speed, I suspect that is a good clue.
If a SWAT truly requires the incredibly small increase in “stopping power” potentially offered by .45 Auto handguns, the same increased terminal effects from the team’s primary long guns is logically also required. In this case no handgun caliber SMG like the MP5 or even a weak rifle caliber carbine like a 5.56 mm AR15 would offer acceptable wounding effects if maximum incapacitation potential is required; at a minimum a 12-16” 6.8 mm carbine would be needed or even better one of the potent modern .308 16” barrel semi-auto carbines currently in use by some U.S. military and LE teams (KAC SR25 ECC, LaRue OBR and PredatAR, FN Mk17/SCAR-H).
Despite the above, if the emotional appeal of the .45 Auto 1911’s outweighs all logical and fiscal considerations, then a high quality 1911 should be chosen. Based on military and LE experience over the past 25 years, it is virtually impossible to acquire a reliable, durable 1911 for less than $2000.00. A properly customized 5″ steel-frame single-stack 1911 in .45 ACP is a superb, unparalleled choice for the dedicated end-user willing to spend a significant amount of money to get it properly initially set-up and considerable time to maintain it. Keep in mind with 1911 pistols that calibers other than .45 ACP and barrels shorter than 5″ induce increasingly greater problems. I personally will not use any 1911 with a Schwartz firing pin safety (like on the Kimber II pistols) as I have seen high numbers of them fail; the Colt Series 80 type firing pin safety is the only one I might trust for urban LE use, but they have also been known to fail in harsh environments (particularly surf zone and high dust) so I generally prefer a standard USG style 1911 pistol w/o firing pin safety. However, I personally would not choose to carry most stock or even semi-custom 1911′s on duty without making sure they were set-up properly with reliable function, durable parts, and ergonomic execution. I firmly believe that if you want a 1911 for serious use, the minimum level of quality for a duty/carry weapon is something like the SA Pro model (either PC9111 or PC9111LR if you want a light rail); if you’re not willing to invest that much into the weapon system, don’t get a 1911… I write this after being around quite a few 1911′s over the past nearly three decades of military and LE duty. I’d strongly recommend anyone contemplating a 1911 for serious use read all of the material on 1911′s at: http://www.10-8performance.com/pages/Articles.html. Remember, if a SWAT team does end-up with 1911 type pistols, the agency will need to ensure access to high level, very experienced pistol- smiths (not just basic armorers) trained in servicing combat weapons–such folks require extensive hands on training, demand high prices, and are hard to find. I have been around numerous LE agencies from 50 to 1500 sworn personnel. On the whole west coast I can only think of a half-dozen or so LE agencies that have true gunsmiths on staff; the rest had “armorers” that only went to the simple 1-2 day classes run by vendor reps. Chew on this: an agency can purchase roughly FIVE Glocks or M&P’s for the cost of ONE quality duty ready 1911. Likewise, an agency has to purchase at least TWICE as many magazines for 1911′s as for Glocks or M&P’s. How can an agency justify this additional cost for minimal if any gain to the taxpayers who are footing the bill?
Most organizations and agencies requiring a .45 Auto handgun are clearly better served by a less expensive, more easily serviced modern pistol like the S&W M&P45, HK45, or G21.
Rather than purchasing larger caliber handguns, most CONUS urban LE agencies would be better served by issuing a quality 9 mm handgun (Glock 17/19, S&W M&P9, or HK P30) along with good ammunition, and then spending the majority of their efforts on mandating effective, high quality, ongoing firearms training—a good minimum would be 100 rounds per week of dedicated, objective, monitored and scored training shots.
As much as I do have a soft spot in my heart for the 1911 , emotions aside everything you stated makes perfect sense and will offend many who can’t (or won’t) look at this objectively. In the past much of the inertia behind 1911’s was due to many swat guys past military experience with 1911’s and I doubt that any more than 5-10% of current cops if they have any military experience at all, were on duty during the 1911 era, as the beretta m9 has now been the standard issue military pistol for over 25 years.
I read this post on lightfighter, and it has really shifted my plan to purchase a 1911 to use (hopefully) someday as a duty weapon (not an officer yet).
I am currently looking at getting an M&P on account of the thumb safety, and it fits my hand better than the Glock I currently shoot for competition. For an urban duty caliber, what has your testing shown on .45 M&P vs 9mm M&Ps? Would the .45 provide a significant advantage to the 9mm even though you are losing 7 rounds?
Statically no. From a stopping power standpoint. The 9mm is just as effective and platform to platform gives you more rounds. Here is some hard data.
http://www.activeresponsetraining.net/an-alternate-look-at-handgun-stopping-power
TTR
How many M&P Pros could the USMC have gotten for the cost of the M45 contract? Probably enough for every shooter in the Corps, not just MARSOC.
It has been said on good authority on LF that those shooters already had/have an economical polymer pistol of modern design and will continue to roll with it. I think the jury is out on exactly what they are going to do with the M45s that the Corps insisted they needed.
That is an interesting twist in the story. Sounds more like a bit of political pork then. Kind of like Colt protesting the award of the M4 contract to Remington [just to lose it again to FN].
I am one who carries a 1911 colt government model every day.carry wise,teaching a class or ect.but I must admit that the modern pistols are what I call the lawn mowers of the shooting world,what I mean by that is we can shoot them and shoot them,put them away and leave them alone.then when we need them again they will shoot just like they did as they did the last time we used them.the reference to lawn mowers is,we run them hard,start them cold,run them till they are hot,then shut them off and put them away till next time.
1911 is and will be a great gun but I agree with you Gary.
This was an excellent and well written article. I have been a fan of the 1911 platform for years, I carried one as my standard sidearm for 12 years in the Marine Corps and absolutely loved it. Since leaving the Corps I have been carrying and shooting an M&P for the vary reasons outlined in the article. I no longer have access to trained smiths who will maintain it and fix it when I break it. I was very dissapointed to see the USMC choose another 1911 platform and not bring itself into the 21st century when it comes to pistols, it was something I fought against for my last couple of years prior to retirement, if only I could have had my way.
This is one of the most comprehensive, experience-based, explanations I’ve seen on the merits of a 1911 for combat/le/defensive use (on the internet). Your last point is an important one… Many agencies would be much better off issuing modern 9mm and investing more in training with that weapon (same for concealed carry holders).
You nailed it , Gary.
Best, Jon Stein
Well said
My experience is born out of twenty five years experience as an LE Agency Firearms Instructor and Armorer that not only maintained hundreds of agency firearms, but firearms for even other agencies in my county.
I love a 1911, who don’t, but as this article says very well, it is not the best choice for a LE Agency duty handgun.
Every part of this piece rings true and I have fought this fight over the years at my old agency. It’s not the Arrow as much as it is the Indian. Training will win the day over cool factor every day
This makes me think an article needs to be written answering this question:
What or who is a 1911 for?
The 1911 is for the enthusiast willing to dedicate the time and resources to properly learn and maintain the pistol. With the right setup and maintenance, it is an amazing pistol. But like a high performance vehicle, it needs a dedicated end user and/or mechanic to properly set it up and keep it performing at that high level.
Almost every class I take I’m the only .45 shooter let alone the only 1911. That’s fine . I’m not Leo so I can learn to love and maintain my 1911’s. For LEO’S I think there are far better choices.
Great article !
Great article. I used to follow 10-8 Forums, but never did register as I am 1) computer dumb and 2) never thought I had anything to contribute. But this was a great article, and made me do some serious soul searching. The 1911 fits my hand like a glove, but I do believe that the 1911 is a platform for the serious handgunner, not the average cop. And I am a cop.
I couldn’t agree more. While I love the 1911 and the intangibles about it. The reality is that it is not a general issue weapons system. It does take a dedicated end user who is willing to spend the time and money to maintain it to use it to it’s full potential.
Many Police and Military personnel are not gun people. A firearm is a tool, something carried for far more hours than they are ever actually used. Cost of the weapon and support equipment, ammunition, training time, maintaining the weapons and support equipment, weight and many other factors come into play. There are better choices as a general issue weapon as has been outlined in the article.
I don’t mean to play devil’s advocate, but the dedicated end user is EXACTLY the guy who shoots the standards referenced. The average SWAT cop doesn’t know those or care about those. If you have a team of 100 guys who can shoot the DeFoor or Hack standards, then you have a hell of a team. Our issued 1911s are a headache, and I firmly believe we would be better off with Glock 17s and X300s, but with that being said, when our guys shoot a 1911 in full gear, with a shield, from a transition, during a stress shoot, etc., the results are there. Guys feel a lot more confident and aren’t turned off by the lower capacity (we like the CMC 10rd Powermags, though mine have the 9rd conversions from Tripp). That puts a 1911 on par with a M&P. I agree with your article – I just wanted to point out that the sex appeal isn’t all show and no go…
The 10rd magazine tubes don’t really hold up well to repeated slide lock reloads, but generally work okay when new. As for putting together 100 guys that are dedicated enough to the 1911 system to maintain it and perform to a high level, that is rare indeed.
Agreed. We generally get 6 mo of life out of them before we have to ditch them. I have much more luck with the 9rd conversions and as I am a shield bearer often, this works for me.
Sadly people give too much credit to today’s SOF and LEO, the common theme isn’t that these guys are gun nuts that take that extra time to learn every thing about their weapon system and search our all the information and knowledge to make them better at their job. There are those out there like that but for the most part their knowledge extends as far as is needed to keep their issued guns running and thats about it. I’ve attended numerous classes with guys who had guns go down simply because they didn’t clean them the last 3 range trips or it has been carried and not wiped down for some time. Most operators don’t have the experience to know what else is out there or the options outside what they are issued. If all you know is the 1911, Glock, Smith and Wesson and its been beaten into your head that its amazing then you too would have a personal attachment to that platform. I think too many people get emotionally invested to a platform for whatever reason. Some popular gun coaches love to talk down on the 1911, while being paid to shoot a Glock, weird huh? The 1911 is every bit a valid platform for defense, the problem in lies in over the last 100 years nobody makes a 1911 to the same spec with every company running a different program and their parts being slightly off spec of everyone else, lending to a gun that has to be hand built to be reliable. I’ve worked with some bigger units that still carry and love their 1911’s, I love my 1911’s and do not shoot them at work, but i whole heartedly agree that most units are better suited by a cookie cutter gun that doesn’t require the extra attention for the average street level operator. By NO means am I saying the 1911, when built properly and maintained how it should is ANY less valid then the equivalent plastic framed or other pistol. For me, no other gun points as well or feel as good in my hands. Am I faster with a 9mm Glock then a 1911? Depends what I have been shooting more but at the end of the day I prefer a 1911.
Cole McC: The nice aspects of .45 Auto are that it makes large holes, can be very accurate, and offers good penetration of some intermediate barriers. Unfortunately, magazine capacity is less than ideal, .45 Auto is more expensive to practice with, and in general is harder to shoot well compared with 9 mm. .45 Auto makes the most sense in states with idiotic 10 rd or less magazine restrictions, if you get lots of free .45 Auto ammo, or in situations where modern expanding ammunition is restricted due to asinine, illogical regulations. Otherwise, 9 mm using modern well engineered ammo makes the most sense for the vast majority of shooters.
Off topic, but did MARs do the work to your 1911 in the picture? I would have to agree as a civilian, the 1911 platform definitely takes a dedicated user, but for me it was a must have. However, daily you’ll find me carrying something different, due to capacity and weight. Good article.
Out of the box, that 1911 was a dog. C&S initially customized it, but it still was only at 90%. Then Chuck Rogers refined it and it became as reliable as a Glock. Of course I could have purchased 5 Glocks or M&P’s for what that 1911 ultimately cost…
Sorry I could not respond in line.
Anyway it almost sounds like being a factory armorer is not quite enough to keep one running. Or is it just that keeping one running is easier than a bunch?
I ask because I took the Colt class with Dean Caputo and one of his tips paid off a lot for one of my Colts.
Of course your reliability check is some thing I would love to see. Going to do your live fire extractor test as soon as I get a chance.
What we’re saying is that the typical 8 hr factory armorer cert is insufficient to provide the knowledge and skills to really keep a fleet of 1911s running. If you are a single user with a couple guns with lower round counts and are therefore still relatively in spec, a smaller base of knowledge can get you by. I have what I would say is “above average” experience with 1911s, yet it is difficult for me to track and troubleshoot a large quantity of 1911s, especially as they age. So, yes, it is easier to keep ONE running vs 50.
Thank you for the clarification. While I do enjoy my Colt as a duty weapon (and keeping up on it) I just wanted to make sure I was not on a fool’s errand. Dean Caputo in the Colt armorer’s course I took made it seem relatively easy at least for one gun. General issue I could see it being a full time job.
As someone who is still a big fan of the 1911 and who dedicated well over 12 years of work carry to one, I would like to postulate a personal observation to a general theme I see this thread.
In particular, I think the phrase, “Serious Hand-gunner” is being tossed about as to mean someone who is better, smarter, more proficient, shoots more or in more in “need” of a SD handgun.
I have been, and continue to be a fairly high-volume pistol shooter. Not as much as some, but certainly much, much more than others who view themselves as “serious hand gunners”.
I will put Hilton’s, LAV’s and other’s in a more common perspective: If you were to take a modern striker-fired pistol vs 1911 and place them in a NASCAR race. Without a doubt, the 1911 would fail to finish more often than a striker fired pistol.
And while a 1911 styled pistol certainly can, and will at times finish and even win a race, the fact remains it will need to come in for pit-stops more frequently than it’s striker-fired competition. Lap for lap. That alone places the platform at a very measurable disadvantage.
Now when you factor in someone who is a true, high-volume shooter that means their 1911 is more likely to be down for service through their race/use/competition/training/duty/call-out season. And the funny thing about breakages, they never happen convenient times.
TTR